The South African Artist Magazine is South Africa's most popular art enthusiast magazine. In this episode of An Artist's Journey Podcast I interview the Managing Editor Linda Hodnett. Established in 2011 The South African Artist Magazine fills an important niche for artists in South Africa. It is also popular overseas and continues to grow its circulation. But it was not all smooth sailing as you fill find out in this interview.
It takes a brave person to launch and grow a magazine in these times. Linda Hodnett is just such a woman and she talks about her motivations for launching the South African Artist Magazine and plans for growing the magazine.
Plus we talk about:
- What was the magazine's biggest challenge for survival;
- What inspired Linda to forge ahead with the magazine;
- The effect of fear and what she would do differently;
- Advice to artists about growing their business;
- An opportunity for artists to showcase their work;
- Linda's favorite painting
Find out more about the magazine and a new subscription at The SA Artist Magazine's website.
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Read the Transcript:
Welcome to “An Artist’s Journey”, the podcast about creating and thriving as an artist. I am your host, Malcolm Dewey. I am a full-time artist and I’m living the artist’s life.
Malcolm: In today’s podcast we are going to be chatting to Linda Hodnett, the Managing Editor of the The South African Artist magazine. Linda was born Newcastle upon Tyne in the United Kingdom and came to South Africa in 1970. She studied at the National School of Arts in Johannesburg. She has spent over 20 years in graphic design, web design and print production. She is currently Managing Director of The South African Artist magazine, and has been since 2011. Linda is living in Kwazulu Natal and we are going to find out more about her and her magazine.
Before we do that, do you know what the number one question is that I get asked by artists? Everybody wants to know how to loosen up their painting and get rid of a tight painting style. You will find the answers to this question in the course How to Loosen Up Your Painting. It consists of over five hours of videos, demonstrations and much more, which will help you learn ways to loosen up your painting and get that lovely impressionist style that you are looking for. You can find more details about this course on my website, malcolmdeweyfineart.com
And now, let’s meet Linda Hodnett.
Today I am happy to have as a special guest Linda Hodnett, Managing Editor of The South African Artist magazine. Linda is going to tell us a bit more about how she got started in the publishing business and, I’m sure, much more as well.
Linda, looking at your resume, you started studying at the National School of Arts in Johannesburg, you have 20 years experience in graphic design and web design and then got into publishing, can you perhaps just fill in the gaps there a bit about how you got from the art studies and then into publishing an art magazine.
Linda : Sure, when I left art school I really didn’t have a clue what I wanted to do and started off working for a furniture design company. I was employed to do architectural tracing and I ended up making models of buildings. After that I moved about and I was a receptionist, I was an estate agent, I did some electrical tracing and eventually I found myself doing graphic design for an company. At one time I thought I had wasted a lot of time in jobs that didn’t suit me, but I think that every bit of experience you gain helps in some way or another. After many years of freelancing as a graphic designer, I decided I needed a change and, perhaps, more of a challenge and I didn’t realize how much of a challenge it was going to be.
Malcolm: I’m sure. Now, when did the magazine start off?
Linda: Our first issue came out in November 2011.
Malcolm: Tell me, Linda, the magazine business and the publishing industry is obviously not something for the faint of heart and the competition is quite fierce, I’m sure. What were the starting challenges for you in this business?
Linda: When we first started, our challenge was advertising, because without a track record it’s difficult to convince people that you will be producing a quality magazine on a regular basis and obviously they want to know that their advertising is not only reaching their target market, but also that the publication is reputable. So it has always been hard work, but, without a doubt, our biggest challenge was the post office and the strike, which happened round about issue 16.
Malcolm: How did that impact your subscribers? Did you have trouble getting your new subscribers in or obviously maintaining your subscriptions? It must have made quite a dent on things like confidence in your business and also with those subscribers.
Linda: It affected us from all angles, because we send out stock to independent stores. We pack that ourselves and send it out, but then we’ve also got a distributor in Johannesburg that deals with CNA and Exclusive Books and all those sort of retailers. Those stores had their stock, but we had just sent out all the stock to the independent stores and all of the subscriptions, and the strike actually broke the following day. We had no warning and lost just about everything. I think we got one parcel back, which we had to pay for to get it back. And subscribers then … we had to have enough funds to pay for the next magazine, without getting any revenue in from subscription renewals or any stock to stores and so that was quite tough.
And trying to convince subscribers that we would try to make some sort of a arrangement to get the magazines to them... We were expecting that strike to just maybe last a week or so, and of course it went on and on and eventually it dragged on for four months and it was very difficult. That strike still affects us today, because subscribers are very wary of renewing if the post office is their only means of receiving the magazine, so it’s still a problem. We still get returned magazines from addresses that we have been sending to for years and for no real reason. We always re-send and re-post any missing magazines. We have also been able to make arrangements with stores for subscribers to collect from their local store, or from their art teacher. We’ve had quite a work around to get around the post office problem. What was once 60% of our stock going out through the post office, it’s now probably only 10%.
Malcolm: Now, Linda, how would you describe yourself as a person capable dealing with risk? Are you happy with the pressures and risks associated with magazine publishing or have you just got used to it?
Linda : Probably, lots of gin and tonic. Just Kidding. I’ve always worked well under pressure, so in fact if I don’t have a deadline I can’t perform. That’s never been a problem for me. These days, there’s a lot less pressure because we run to a proper schedule, we’ve got a six week schedule, so we know at any particular time what we are supposed to be doing and what is due. I think when we started, we didn’t do enough forward planning. Suddenly there was deadline, which we battled to meet. And also there is a risk dealing with artists, you know. They can very unreliable, because I’m sure most of them are far happier painting than having to be interviewed or do demonstrations. So we do get let down. We’ve been let down on more than one occasion and that can be really stressful, because suddenly you’re trying to replace and artist at the last minute.
Malcolm : Yes, I do find that there’s nothing like a deadline to bring out the best in me and we seem to … I think there is a saying that goes, something to the effect of “the longer you have to do something, or to start something, the more you’re going to procrastinate.” At least we do get something done if you set a deadline. I think that’s a good practice for most people.
Linda: And also, dealing with artists you also somehow have to give them a lot more time than you expect them to need, because, I think, the art gets in the way of doing the admin.
Malcolm: Not all artists, perhaps, are happy with pressure and maybe try to avoid it. So maybe it doesn’t bring out the best in all of us, but a word to all the artists out there: Please write down that deadline and stick to it.
Linda: That would be great.
Malcolm: Okay, now looking back at the time you have been with the magazine, what do you say was the pivotal success or was there a point in time that you can look back on, reflect and say, “Right, we’re on steady ground now and things are going to be pretty good.”?
Linda : I think that we have been able to establish ourselves as the leading practical art magazine in the country. It’s probably the only practical art magazine, so that’s why, but it’s difficult to pinpoint any time of success. You know we are constantly trying to expand our distribution and subscriber base and improve our offering.
Malcolm : Linda, you’ve mentioned, if I can just pick out the one thing you’ve just mentioned now, is that the South African Artist magazine is really the only practical or instructional type of magazine. As your magazine cover says, it’s the magazine for professional artists and art enthusiasts, and it’s certainly the only one I can think of for art enthusiasts. It must have been a bit of a leap of faith to jump into a market where there was nothing really similar out there. How did you research that, or decide, “well, we’ll give it a go anyway”?
Linda: Well, I had done layout and design for a consumer magazine prior to starting the art magazine. I had always subscribed to publications like American Artists and International Artists and they were great, but I couldn’t but help but wonder … the products weren’t available locally and the artists weren’t familiar to us. This was obviously the days before Facebook, when obviously now it’s far easier to get to know international artists. But, I just kept thinking that surely there’s a gap here for us, and there must be a need for something locally. And when I started doing research into the viability of a local magazine, the initial feedback was very negative, which probably spurred me on. Being an Aries, I wouldn’t take no for an answer.
I just saw a gap and I thought “If you don’t try, you’ll never know.” So, I contacted a friend of mine, Harry Lock, who is a great photographer and he is also an artist and graphic designer, and thought he would be a great partner to work with. It took some convincing, but he eventually agreed and we worked together for about two years. In the beginning, it was difficult. We didn’t earn a salary, getting the magazine to print was always a struggle, we were doing everything between the two of us, and eventually Harry bowed out. He went back to concentrating on his own business, but I must say that he was very instrumental in shaping the magazine and I have to thank him for that. I think that the negative feedback was probably the catalyst for getting it going.
Malcolm : When doing your research into the magazine, you obviously realized that South Africa has a lot of artists, particularly art enthusiasts who paint as a hobby, even at a relatively high level. Why would you say there was this negative response, bearing in mind that there seems to be quite a large amount of enthusiastic artists out there? Do you think is simply a part of our isolation-type mindset, we’re on the other end of the world, or what do you ascribe it to?
Linda : I don’t know. A lot of a people said, “I don’t think you’ll have enough material. I don’t think there are enough local artists, or artists of good enough caliber to feature”. I think a lot of people have got this idea that if it’s local it’s not good enough. And I think maybe that was the reaction, that people are not going to be buy a magazine about local artists. They want to aspire to be as good as international artists, which is obviously not true.
Malcolm : Have you seen a change in that attitude since, let’s say in the past five or six years?
Linda : I think so. You know, I think social media has got a lot to do with it as well. Obviously, it’s easier to get noticed and there are a lot more artists coming out and posting their work on social media and I think we’ve got a lot of very good artists in this country, some really excellent talent. Yes, I think social media has got a lot to do with it. I’d like to think that the magazine has got a lot to do with it, as well.
Malcolm : You mentioned you hope that the magazine has got an influence, Linda, and I just want to refer to a letter that somebody wrote in to you in the previous issue, maybe a month or two ago, and this artist wrote in and said that at first they found it intimidating to read about other competent artists, but then got over that and found it refreshing that artists were helping other artists with tips and advice. So, perhaps there is a clue there that artists are perhaps coming out of their shell a bit and learning and being happy to learn, and perhaps also acknowledging that they need to learn from others. The magazine can certainly help expose artists to other influences and perhaps give a bit of help or a boost to their confidence.
Linda : Yes, yes definitely. I think that the step-by-step demo’s that we get the artists to do as well, I think a lot of the part-time artists … they will do those demo’s themselves and learn from them, pick up some great tips by doing it.
Malcolm : Okay, Linda, looking back, with the benefit of hindsight, let’s say you have a chance to give yourself some advice 20 years ago, what would it be?
Linda : That’s not an easy one. Don’t publish an art magazine (laughs). No, I’m kidding. I would just probably take more chances. You know, I often had ideas, I wanted to try things, and then I backed off because I was afraid of failing. I think everybody goes through that. I think you have to take a leap of faith and trust your instincts. I probably would have done something like this a lot sooner, if I’d had the courage.
Malcolm : Linda, that is certainly profound and important advice there. I think that every artist who has thought about taking the leap into full-time art, for instance, will feel the same way, but I think that it applies really to any business adventure. When you’re starting off, you have to put aside the fear of failure, and that is, perhaps, one of our biggest fears. I’m sure you don’t regret it now, but at the time you perhaps didn’t have the benefit of a lot of success statistics behind you, as far as magazines are concerned, particularly since the crash in 2008. That was a brave move.
Linda : You know when we started, when we were looking for a distributor and we chatted to a guy at one of the big distribution companies and he said to us, “I’m going to give you some advice and that’s to stay small, because a lot of publications end up top-heavy and you just can’t sustain that. It’s a tough industry to be in. Selling advertising and getting people to believe in you is quite difficult. Whatever you do just stay small”. And we always stuck with that, because if we hadn’t, for example with the post office strike, if we hadn’t been a small team, we would have actually closed our doors because there would be no ways we could be paying loads of staff.
Malcolm : That is also a critical bit of advice, I think, the old adage of: keep you overheads low and work on getting your cashflow healthy, before you expand.
Linda : It has meant that we’ve all had to wear different hats. We had to be really good at doing all sorts of different things, jobs we thought we would never be doing. When we started, we had no benchmark, we had no setting up data-bases for subscriptions and for how to work out when renewals are due when you’ve got thousands of subscribers, you know. All those type of systems had to be put in place and we’ve learnt quickly, the quickest and the best way of doing things. I think you have to be able to multi-task. You’ve got to be able to deal with people, but you’ve also got to be good at admin and, obviously, good on the PC. You’ve got to be able to design, and be able to update a website, but at the same time chase accounts and deal with the post office. I think that’s also where we were able to get over all the hurdles, was that we were all able to multi-task fairly well.
Malcolm : And, of course, starting off lean, you can make decisions and change direction on a dime and just see something that needs doing and change direction if you need to.
Linda : That’s right.
Malcolm : Perhaps, working on this same sort of idea about looking back a little, let’s say if you could do one thing over again, when you look back and think “if we had just done this…” Does something come to mind?
Linda : Not really. I think that everything we have been through has been a learning curve and I don’t think we could have, or should have, done differently. Apart from when we started off, if we’d had pots of money, that would have made a difference. Maybe we wouldn’t have started a magazine if we had pots of money. But I think we have learnt some valuable lessons along the way. It hasn’t been easy, but I don’t think we’ve made any terrible mistakes that we would look back and say we shouldn’t have done that.
Malcolm : Considering this whole world-recession and lots of doom and gloom, The South African Artist magazine has been a success. And maybe you’ve also had a chance to look at artists, you obviously deal with a lot of artists, so what would you say has distinguished some artists from others to weather this economic storm and get through this period as well?
Linda : I think a positive attitude is essential. Of course, just having a positive attitude isn’t enough. There is a lot of hard work to be done. I know that artists would rather sit in their studios and paint away, but marketing through social media has made such a difference to a lot of artists and having a good, up-to-date, website is also good. If you can divide your time and maybe schedule your time that you have painting time and you have your social media time when you are in contact with buyers, or people interested in your art, or updating whatever you’ve just painted.
There is something I would just like to add here, it’s a bit of a bug-bear for me. There are hundreds of artists on Facebook, South African artists, and some of them have got their own artist’s pages and they post regular updates on their work and it’s all great, but there are so many artists out there who do not have contact details on their profiles. You will go in and think, well, let me find out more about this artist, maybe we would like to contact them… no email address, no phone number, no website. I can’t tell you how many times we have tried to get hold of an artist for a feature or demo and we’ve tried to send them a private message, they haven’t replied.
So I think that it’s important, if you are going to put yourself out there, you have to put up your contact details and you have to be available. If somebody writes to you, you have to reply. People want to get hold of you. It could be a buyer or somebody who wants to commission you. A lot of people don’t want to be public about that, so they don’t want to just comment on your post. They’d rather send you a private message. So that’s my soapbox bit for the day.
Malcolm : Definitely valuable advice. If I can add in a bit, from my own experience, you never know when the next buyer or collector or opportunity is going to come. It is impossible to say “well I’ve had nothing for the past three months so what’s the point.” And then suddenly you get somebody who wants to redecorate a guest house, for instance, and needs 20 paintings. Things like that do happen, and you need to be available.
Linda : And I think artists, a lot of them lock themselves away in their studios and they are painting and they are doing good work, but you’ve got to get it out there. You’ve got to believe in yourself. You’ve got to have that positive attitude. If you’re going to sit in your studio and say “I haven’t sold a painting in a whole month, I don’t think I’m going to sell a painting this year and I don’t know what I’m going to do” that’s the worst thing you can do.
Malcolm : Absolutely.
Linda : You’ve got to believe in what you are doing, but you also have to let people know what you’re doing. It’s difficult, it’s a delicate balance, but it has to be done, unless you’ve got an assistant and you can say “get onto Facebook and do this and that”, but I don’t think many artists have that luxury
Malcolm : No, I don’t suppose they do. And probably it’s simply a case, as you say, of knuckle down and do the work. Okay, now moving on to a bit more about you Linda. You studied at the School of Arts, so if I ask you where do you lean: towards being an artist or collector of art?
Linda : I do paint, but very rarely. I have a studio that gets locked up and I hardly every get into it. My father will not be happy to hear me say that, because he’s always telling me to get in there and paint. I’ve found that I don’t have enough time, and that sounds really bad. As an artist, you know that if you’re going to paint you need at least two or three hours, uninterrupted time. Well, I do. I need at least to know that I have two or three hours at least. I’ve tried to schedule my time – here I am telling other artists to schedule their time, and I’m not doing what I say – but I have tried to sort of say “alright on a Wednesday and a Thursday at 3 o’clock I’ll stop work and I’ll go and paint”, but that doesn’t normally happen. I do occasionally paint, and I do collect art as well.
Malcolm : Linda, that’s almost a sad story that and now we must all help you unlock that studio and do some painting. You’re right, it’s easy to give that advice, you must paint and set time, but there’s a lot of mental and practical hurdles that can lie in the way. I know that for a fact. It’s very easy to get distracted and we can always be busy. I think that also reminds me of that artist that looks back at years ago when they used to paint and now they wished they could get back into it, but they never do. So, I suppose I can say one thing though, Linda, it takes – it’s like going to the gym, you have to start. After two or three weeks it becomes a habit and you have no more trouble.
Linda : That procrastination factor, you know, when you do eventually get into the studio then its “well, I’ll just tidy up this little area, and I’ll just do this, and I’ll just do that”. Anything, but to start putting paint on that canvas that’s staring at you.
Malcolm : Don’t trust a tidy studio. You know there’s something wrong. Okay, now you publish the magazine every second month? Six issues a year?
Linda : That’s right.
Malcolm : You mentioned deadlines earlier, so what happens after the deadline? Do you just take some time to unwind, or do you get straight back into preparing for the next one?
Linda : We probably have about two days between the last mag going out and the next one being planned. As I mentioned before, we work to a schedule, probably over a six week schedule. So once the magazine has been signed off for print, we spend the time in-between signing it off and getting out stock, that time is spent following up on admin, making sure there aren’t any hassles with subscriptions and all that sort of thing.
There is a dedicated person who deals with subscriptions and deals with the bulk, but just before we start sending out we need to make sure that everything is updated, totally updated, so that once invoices are printed or magazine address labels are printed for subscriptions that that list that we are working from is absolutely right and up-to-date. We then spend that week or so doing that, and then it’s a matter of getting the magazine out and checking that all our orders up-to-date and then we are straight back into the next issue. And, in fact, the next issue has already been started, it’s already been planned a couple of weeks prior, but we’ve then got the time to dedicate ourselves solely to the next issue. It doesn’t really end. There’s always an over-lapping. So you’re going to try and tell me that the two days I take off I have to get into that studio. Is that what your…
Malcolm : It crossed my mind, Linda, but I won’t do that to you. I’ll just ask you, what do you prefer to do to unwind and have a bit of fun when you’re not working on the magazine?
Linda : Actually twice a month an artist friend and I go and visit galleries, we look at various exhibitions, we sit and discuss art, but I do try to paint. That would be my number one relaxation, would be to get into the studio and spend a whole afternoon painting. That’s what I really try to do.
Malcolm : That is certainly an amazing way to relax. Let me ask you then, if you are looking at galleries and exhibitions, let’s say money is no object, what artist’s paintings would you want to collect.
Linda : And this is any artist?
Malcolm : Any artist, international or local, it doesn’t matter.
Linda : Well, if money was not object and I had a fairly large wall, I would like to have The Nightwatch by Rembrandt. That painting has always fascinated me. I have never seen it in the flesh, but the Rijksmuseum is on my bucket list, but that would be it. That would be what I want.
Malcolm : Good choice. Okay, looking ahead what, if any that you can share with us without giving the game away or something like that, are there any exciting projects or developments you’ve got planned for the magazine?
Linda : We’ve got a couple of projects in the pipeline, but nothing we can really discuss right now, because we haven’t finalized the details. But apart from that, on the other side of things, I think what we are trying to do is to get into more stores, especially getting into supermarkets, because I think people buy their magazines while they do their shopping these days. They don’t necessarily go to a dedicated newsagent. That’s our plan for the next eight months, is to start rolling out into some of the bigger markets.
Malcolm : Excellent. I’ve got a copy of your magazine here, and I see that you also publish digital editions, via Magzster. Would you say that digital is something that is going to expand for yourselves perhaps in the future, or do you find that maybe the art magazine is preferred in print form?
Linda : It’s quite interesting. I’m probably also going to throw you a curve-ball here, because I am also actually involved with the Associate Editor for the New Zealand Artist magazine. We have certainly found the Europe, and also New Zealand, people are far more prepared to have their magazine digitally. They don’t have a problem with getting it digitally, so that’s a bigger market for us there. But locally, I don’t know what it is, South Africans seem to be…. I don’t know. Maybe people like to take a printed copy into the studio and not have to worry about getting paint on their ipad screen. I don’t know. We have a lot of subscribers in Europe for the digital version. We have quite a few people also, international subscribers, that subscribe to the print that we send out. I think internationally, for some reason, digital is definitely growing. Although, I read a – I’m going to contradict myself here – I belong to a publishers forum and I read an article not so long ago about, in America, they say people are going back to print and they’re going back to reading their novels in print, rather than digitally. I think our market is very different, so I think print is still here and will be here for a while.
Malcolm : It definitely is an interesting idea. I can say, from my own experience, Linda, I’ve tried a couple of international magazine, American ones, digitally, and the appeal does seem to wear off. And I think mainly because it is not present in your mind. If you don’t see it lying on the table, on the coffee-table or whatnot, you don’t think about it. You have to actually remember: I can go online, I can look at the magazine on my tablet or whatever, but you actually have to have that thought in mind, whereas with the magazine, if it’s too hand then you will pick it up and browse through it. So it’s definitely an advantage there.
Linda : I think also the advantage with the digital one is that go away and you’ve got your tablet with you, you can have the whole library of back issues at hand. And you can put in bookmarks and all that sort of thing to find things easily. But there is something about picking up a magazine.
Malcolm : I guess we just have to watch that space and see how it develops in the market.
Linda : It seems that locally some magazines are finding that their print is growing again, so it’s just something we’ve got to watch. I don’t think we can predict which way it’s going to go. We’ll just have to wait and see. Obviously from a costs point-of-view, it would be great for us if we could just go digital, because printing prices – obviously printing is very expensive.
Malcolm : There are a few advantages as well, I guess, which I have noticed with the international magazines, is that they are incorporating access to video. Demonstrations could be a tap away for the reader to actually watch the video, but then you need very good internet connection and we are still perhaps lagging a bit there as well. So there are practical issues.
Linda : I think internet in South Africa – data is quite expensive, so people veer away from those type of things. Having said that, we have also started putting QR codes into the magazine where a demonstration, you know the artist doing a demonstration or the product they’ve used, has a video on YouTube and you can just take your tablet or your smartphone and scan that QR code and it will take you directly to the video. So, we’ve started to add a little bit of interactive content.
Malcolm : And talking about print or digital, Linda, how does somebody listening to this interview – how can they get a subscription and where do they find your magazine?
Linda : The best thing to do would probably be to go to our website, which is saartist.co.za, and they can click on the subscription tab, or, if they want to go and buy a copy, they can click on the stockists tab. We keep adding to that list, so it’s a good idea to keep checking. And then, also, I would just like to say that if you have a local store who you think should be stocking the magazine, then please ask them to contact us or send us their details so that we can get in contact with them. Because, especially in smaller towns, it’s quite difficult to find these little art shops or newsagents that could be stocking the magazine.
Malcolm : Excellent. I certainly hope that does happen, Linda, because we are starved for art magazines in this country, there is no doubt about it. I think you have done a great service and are helping a lot of artists display their work and talents and also learning from others as well; that has been an amazing thing. We see many international artists, they have such a presence on line, but we are missing out on what’s available locally. So the magazine is definitely a window of opportunity there as well. I just want to say thanks very much for joining me today, and I hope that our chat has some useful insights for anyone interested in published and also….
Linda : Don’t do it (laughs).
Malcolm : … and artists who can contact you and who are perhaps better at sticking to a deadline than some of the others.
Linda : That’s a question that we get asked, and actually if I can just say if there are artists out there who would like to submit their work for consideration, they can drop us an email, send us a couple of images and we’ll put them on the list and we will contact them.
Malcolm : Fantastic. Well, Linda, I wish you strength to strength with your magazine and all the best for the future and we’ll chat again one day soon hopefully.
Linda : Thanks Malcolm, the same to you.
I want to give a special thanks to Linda Hodnett for appearing on the show today. You can find out more about The South African Artist magazine on their website thesaartist.co.za. Go along there and find out how you can subscribe to the magazine. There is also a lot of useful information on the site, demonstrations and information about competitions you can enter and much more. So check out thesaartist.co.za
As usual, this podcast is brought to you by “Learn to Paint with Impact”, the comprehensive painting course for beginner and intermediate artists. Find out more about the course at malcolmdeweyfineart.com and you can sign up for the course and get stuck in to over 7 hours of video demonstrations, assignments and much more. That’s “Learn to Paint with Impact” at malcolmdeweyfineart.com
I hope that you have enjoyed this podcast and, if you have, please give it a like and share and be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss the next episode.
Until then, we’ll chat again soon.
Cheers for now.
Malcolm Dewey: Artist. Country: South Africa